Defense Review - Latest Comments in F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

David Amerson — Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:09:33 -0000

I have to agree. We not too long ago saw the Marines sporting a stealthy version of the Blackhawk. So why not a stealthy version of the F-16, F-15 and F-18s? Seems the technology should be applied as you go and systems upgraded, new versions of the aircraft redesigned all with cost savings in mind. If you make your product too expensive you will overprice yourself out of a job.

But look on the bright side, at least we can buy the Chinese version at a fraction of the price. We buy everything else from them.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Sandy — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:30:40 -0000

Olga, fine post.

The solution, though not a nice solution, is war.

All the layering you speak of would disappear and sweat would appear. People would quite abruptly rather long hours at work than cooling it at home.

I choose to be confident on the sweat. I purposely shade my eyes on the sagged pants of today's young. But I may be also purposely ignorant.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

gratifymenow — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 12:52:22 -0000

it might be a Russian piece of crap but it's better than the American piece of crap! Why do you think they have cancelled the orders? Not cos the F22 was brilliant but cos it was shit and worse than other planes. Do you really want to send your American pilots up in planes and see them shot down in their thousands? You are locked in the past and come to terms with the present. America might have produced the best weapons in the 70's 80's and 90's but now the corporate fraudsters have pulled your pants down and stolen billions from you and all you can do is slag off the superior Russian jets!

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

gratifymenow — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 12:46:43 -0000

so you are willing to be f***ed up the ass by your politicians so long as they are not called Hussein? You are such a dick! ;)

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

gratifymenow — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 12:43:46 -0000

ordinary Americans are glad to be f***ed up the Ass - is it because they are stupid or just obeying the rules of deference to their betters?

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

gratifymenow — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 12:41:12 -0000

LOL! what happened to the pride in being the best in the world? Why are the people not associated with this theft of billions of dollars in prison? The criminal justice system in America favours the white collar fraudsters and locks up black and hispanics at a growing rate making sure the slave population in private prisons who are forced to work and make a bigger profit for the investors at the expense of American workers...

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

SarK0Y — Wed, 17 Nov 2010 18:27:28 -0000

Virgin holy naiveness:-)

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

SarK0Y — Wed, 17 Nov 2010 18:14:08 -0000

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There is simply no justifiable reason why ANY new tactical fighter aircraft, or any new combat aircraft of any kind, for that matter, should take longer than 5 years to develop from initial concept to combat (production and procurement). And it definitely shouldn’t take longer than 5 years for any aircraft system to go into production from the time the Air Force selects a contractor. Don’t agree? Well, here’s our retort, consisting of four examples:
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David, you got fatal mistake into your logic: no one can plan how many R&D phase will certainly take Time & money. at our days, civilization has a grave deadlock to get really something new.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

SarK0Y — Wed, 17 Nov 2010 18:01:11 -0000

get real, buddy:) nasa is crap, US military techs are crap.. == Logic;-) but to call russian aircrafts, Cosmonautics.. the crap XD don't strike your head against table & switch your brain on:-)

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Alex — Wed, 15 Sep 2010 06:24:02 -0000

Hey Hkhfadf. You make a great point about how different technologies would have been if the Raptor would have rolled out in 1996 or 97. But look at the tech of the First F-15 that rolled out when it was introduced in 1976. Today's F-15 or F-16 would knock the snot out of the the F-15's and 16's of the 70's 80's and 90's. Technologies are always changing and many of our combat Jet Fighters have been constantly upgraded. It's only Natural the all Jets receive the latest enhancement of technical upgrades and latest increased powerful (depending the airframe designs)Jet Engines that hands the latest increased thrust. Weather the wars are high or low intensity doesn't make any difference. It's about do we have the resources to produce enough of these jet fighters in case of war. But here is an Idea that no one ever cares to think about. If you want a real time war where no crack pot can make a single dime out of it. We should draft all the Munition plants, the industrial capacity and the technical know how on producing the materials to wage War. That way no idiots in Washington,Business leaders and Defense contractor can ever make a single buck out of it. That way we all know that our National Security is for real and if we ever fight a war we are fighting it to win just like we did in WW2. Today's wars and many wars of the past have been a racket . We have plenty of resources to house, to provide health care for all, socially educate every citizen in our country and the world combined instead of wasting our energies killing each other. Money is an illusion to continue to create barriers, hatred, division and wars all in the name of exploits. It's time humanity gets on board to unite or face extinction.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Hkhfadf — Tue, 03 Aug 2010 19:00:25 -0000

" we could have had operational Raptors by the 1996-1997 time frame "
It is not true. At that time you could have had an F-22 Raptor, but a very different plane because the techollogies were very different.

Also comparation with WWII has no sense: five years when you are in a real world war is too much time, much more time than 16 years when you are only in low intensity wars like 90's.
The only problem with F-22 is that if you only build 183, the price per unit is very high. Obviously, if you were in a WWIII you will make much more than 1000, and price per unit will be much lower.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Fed Up — Sun, 23 May 2010 11:01:37 -0000

it isnt better its a cheap russian piece of crap

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Fed up — Sun, 23 May 2010 10:56:47 -0000

think about it, with all of the corrupted senators and congressmen all that means is instead of the monney going into the f-22 raptor its going to buy nice houses for corrupted politions. I think that we need 750 raptors but barack HUSSEIN obama seems to not care about anything other than himself. Im sick of obama allready i hope he gets impeached

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Alex — Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:15:49 -0000

When is anyone going to understand that where there is money there is corruption. Face it people. The United States of America is the richest and yet the most corrupt nation on the face of the earth when it comes to Money. Money Money Money is the name of the game. This is what was said from a genius of man by the name of Jacque Fresco. ""At the beginning of World War II the U.S. had a mere 600 or so first-class fighting aircraft. We rapidly overcame this short supply by turning out more than 90,000 planes a year. The question at the start of World War II was: Do we have enough funds to produce the required implements of war? The answer was No, we did not have enough money, nor did we have enough gold; but we did have more than enough resources. It was the available resources that enabled the US to achieve the high production and efficiency required to win the war. Unfortunately this is only considered in times of war."

So ask yourselves this question. Why did it take so long. We cry about about government paying for Welfare, Health care, and other government programs when it comes to the welfare of the American people. But no one bats an eye when a top secret X program could cost any where from $65 up to $200 Billion within 20 to 25 years if you adjust inflation rates over the years. Corruption people is the reason why this crap of an Air Junk (F-22) took over 25 years. Our defense contracts and the Military industry is big business.There is nothing more of a government hand out then the defense industry itself. We have 300 Nuclear subs all capable of wiping out any country on the face of this earth. How stupid can we be to spend any more of our taxpayers money or waste our valuable resources when it comes to killing people.

The United States will never be destroyed by an outside enemy. We will crumble within ourselves. Why? We are our own worst own enemies when it comes to securing the American people when it comes to raising our standard of living. All we know how to do is either bomb people or jail them. Jail people and instead of housing the poor in the first place. Now I'm all for our national defense. Please don't misunderstand me. But what I'm saying is don't allow business people or politicians when it comes the decision making on building a new jet fighters or coming up with great ideas on allowing technologies to improve our current ones we have in place. Business men and woman as well as Political idiots don't know how to solve problems. They aren't even trained to do so. Let the technicians do their job people. Money isn't and never was the issue. Corruption is because where there is money there is BS. In other words never send a beautician to fix your plumbing system. End Of Story.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Jeff — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:29:31 -0000

Even better, buy Su-37s and do the same. The 37s already have canards, so one less thing to do. And we could probably get away with giving the Russians monopoly money.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

xirathi — Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:37:55 -0000

This whole discussion is moot. This isn't world war 2 people. Modern Air dominance doesn't squarely rest upon the shoulders of a brash squadron of fighter aces. It's all about missiles these days. That's right, good 'ole boring automated cruise missiles launched from good 'ole boring old platforms. The F-22 is a high profile weapons platform that is popular with the public, but largely unnecessary in current DoD doctrine. Yes, fighters are sexy, but modern SAMs and AAMs are so good that we don't have to rely on Air superiority role jets.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Revelations — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:12:44 -0000

Sorry I’m a few months late but any war with China or Russia will come down to boots on the ground. Eventually you would have to nuke china. Our ground forces may have the most advanced weapons but the share number of troops China has a long with machinery, will make it necessary to nuke them to win. If you call starting Armageddon wining. A war with Russia would be winnable. with their existing corrupt government still in place we could just pay some would over there to take out their leadership. From what I see, China is the future threat. Both economically and militarily. The funny thing is, the greedy corporate Americans are building the very monster we (The future Grandson and Granddaughters of this GREAT NATION) will have to fight!

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

lawrencekahn — Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:51:20 -0000

Corporations just LOVE contract cancellations. They get to fire everybody on the cancelled program, deliver nothing, but collect a fortune in cancellation fees. Who doesn't love free money? Who cares if another few thousand workers have their lives disrupted while they try to live on unemployment insurance payments? Silly question: instead of Lockheed F-22s, why doesn't the DOD order the new Sukhoi stealth fighters from Russia? Supposedly, it's a better aircraft and it's for sale to anybody in the world. Subsequently, the DOD could cancel that contract as well, screwing up their economy, too.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

billybob82 — Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:27:10 -0000

Necessity is the mother of invention. America was in total war scenarios with the development of those other fighters. The P-51 =/= the F-22, although 20 years in RnD is really long you cannot fairly compare the two. Ever since the end of the cold war (looming threat of nuclear strikes between the USSR and USA) there really has not been much need to push such an aircraft swiftly into service.

In closing 7-10 years should have been a fair dev cycle for the F-22 and its a shame such a damn fine aircraft has been abandoned. With the recent test flight of the T-50 by the Reds tho, the defence secretary may consider the continuation of the program, lets hope anyways....

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Justin Case — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 01:23:22 -0000

We will beat them by out spending them

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Olga Centura — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:03:19 -0000

Cost drivers: the demand by the "customer" for endless metrics, processs compliance, meetings and documentation, which drives up cost just to generate these dust collectors that in turn take years to maintain. Also, each one of the aircraft interface documents can run to 2,000 pages each. Most managers spend their days in meetings and compiling metrics and schedules to answer program offices thirst for numbers. There is no real development direction except down in the cubicles where questions are thrown to systems while weeks go by waiting for answers. Next, the systems engineers can't get timely information from customers and sub-contractors and co-primes because of proprietary rules and interpersonal barrier building by one team by another in a competition that was hard fought for and probably challenged. This keeps every cost center on a schedule and cost overrun treadmill bordering on yellow to red status. By the time a product of this complexity became ready for flight test, the technology of the software teams was already migrated a generation in terms of languages: Ada to C++. That's about ten years. For a long time contractors would not use Java as too untried and too many security concerns for this type of platform. These barriers to an effective development cycle may in part be addressed by Agile and Lean processes. I doubt that WWII aircraft was as complex as determining vectoring thrust for a fighter aircraft with variable payload. It also was a MUST have in a time when the enemy was literally on our doorstep. It had to be ready and any contractor who threw a wrench in the mix was not acting in the best interests of his country.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

ednonymous — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 04:39:10 -0000

Buy SU-35s and fit them out with P&W engines and Western avionics.

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

KSoda — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:39:02 -0000

Isn't it disheartening to know Russia, China, Iran and wack jobs like Hugo Chavez and every other radical government is dropping a massive portion of their gdp into new generations of offensive and defensive weapon systems...including new stealth technologies, and counter-stealth technologies, meanwhile, one statement made about Obama by Chavez really struck me as very profound and alarming when he said "Fidel, careful or we are going to end up to his right".

My Son-in-Law is an Eagle tech at Tyndall and plans were that he would transfer to the Raptor squadron as the F15's were fased out, that has now been pushed aside. Speculations were that Tyndall would be home to JSF's, F16's...who knows now.

Having spent some quality time visiting my family menbers on Tyndall, I had several opportunities to see just some of what the Raptor is capable of and that is a huge understatement...the aircraft, regardless of rust problems is an absolute amazing aircraft. I have never witnessed any bird slam the brakes on at high speed and completely reverse direction the way the Raptor can. The 2009 airshow had offered just a taste of this technological wonder, but, the Obama administration, Congress and Secretary Gates in all their wisdom, I believe have now left our national security and brave forces and allies in greater jepardy by cancelling the Raptor program.

From what I've seen, heard and read, as well as what I've learned as a consumer, if you want the very best...it costs; how much longer, even with retrofitting and upgrades to the Eagle or F16 will they be able to compete with new generations of Russian and Chinese, or even Europene fighters... or defensive systems no less?

I do not know what the plans are with DoD or the AF or what is done and said behind closed doors, but I'm happy at least for now to hear the Raptor is still performing Op's along side the F15 at Tyndall and other air bases.

I hear many pros and cons for and against the Raptor, but it is my hopes that the F22 program will be reborrn better than ever, like what happened with the rebirth of the B1B Lancer program under the late great Ronald Reagan after that other Socialist President cancelled that awesome bomber. Time to clean house...the White House and Congess that is!

Re: F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it?

Shane — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 01:20:54 -0000

I have to say that I have often wondered why the F-22 has taken so long and have watched the Russians pass us. The F-15 never got the big upgrade like the super tomcat, super hornet and etc. Maybe the Airforce didn't want to prevent the F-22 from being unfounded.

Sure would love to see the F-15 get the new P&W's with 38K of thrust.